Which version is rock solid?

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Fri, 10/12/2012 - 08:32

#1

Inprogress

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Which version is rock solid?

Hi.

Unfortunately I have old hardware, and having used kdenlive about 9 months ago (with lots of crashes) I decided to install it again, along with creating a linux setup. Kdenlive installed finally, only it can't create proxy clips. Then after taking the dogs for a walk, and searching the forum a bit for a solution, kdenlive crashes without me touching anything. WTF!!!!

So which version of kdenlive is solid? With which distro should I pair it to be solid? Is there a solid combination?

I installed LinuxMint XFCE 13 Maya.
Kdenlive 0.9.2

And my system info is:
Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo CPU T2300 @ 1.66GHz
2048 KB L2 cache
4GB DDR2 RAM
32 bit system
Intel Modbile 945GM Express video card

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Fri, 10/12/2012 - 10:29

#2

al25fps

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

I am using Archlinux (rolling release, always in sync with latest (Kdenlive) releases) and have no troubles, but I am not a heavy user (usually mp2g2 material, no proxies, no fancy gimmicks, just some effects and transitions and render to h.264 or mpeg4 codec).

Before Arch I have been using openSuse and Kdenlive from the links2linux packman repo and everything was fine.

Ubuntu users here are convenient with Kdenlive from the sunap ppa in combination with packages from an extra repository.

You will find some more information with the forum search - this question has been asked a couple of times, especially how to set up a working video editing suite on ubuntuish distros.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 13:11

#3

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Non of them in my experience, the well worn saying your mileage may vary, but it'll also depend on source files, hardware, complexity and a lot of other factors. But crashing is going to happen and probably at the least expected moment.

But to offset that kdenlive offers to me some surprising features compared to many apps, like project recovery on restart, backups and autosaves, not trying to suggest that its a solution, crashing is damn annoying but those features help.

How did you install 0.9.2 on Linux Mint, from a PPA or build script, the only two ways I'd recommend if it's not in the repos. It's odd you can't create proxies, have you tried custom proxy option?

If you don't want crashes and more of your WTF!! moments kdenlive ain't for you.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 13:20

#4

Inprogress

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

@ al25fps

Thanks for the reply. I'm not a heavy user either especially considering my hardware. I've looked at Arch for while now but I really am not a linux fundi and setting up Arch really seems like a 5 day thing for someone like me cause I'll have to figure out things before I'll know if I need them or not, and at this point I just want to be able to pick up the tool and start using it without the need to tweak it to get it to work.

Any pre-packaged Arch linux setups....maybe I should try my setup with Archbang....it'll just be another two days I spend just to be able to start editing a video file on a tool without crashes.

Thanks again for the direction, appreciated.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 13:24

#5

Inprogress

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

@yellow

I updated my repository...uhm.....source and installed via Software Manager. I remember the project recovery thing however with 8.1 it didn't actually recover my project, just opened it and crashed again.

Kdenlive should maybe look at the Lightworks business model (my hardware is to old for it), mind you I think that there are a ton of excellent linux software programs that can only benefit and become serious market leaders with such a model.

Anyway, I just want to edit a few simple projects in an NLE...my best solution is new gear.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 17:53

#6

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Updated your repository, have you tried sunabs PPA either stable or unstable?

I used to use Gentoo years ago before Ubuntu arrived, recently looked at Arch and it too involved to be bothered with, thinking back to the amount of time spent trying to work with Gentoo building from scratch. I think Ubuntu based distros are fine.

Personally Lightworks is no business model that I think open source software should adopt, Lightworks is for those looking for a free lunch, most users there I'd suggest don't give a damn about open source, just free or cheap NLE.

Generating income for open source projects via crowd sourcing, Indigogo and donating members yes.

The business model, I assume you mean the license fee to generate income, is centered around the premise they say they have to pay license on codecs, so differentiate their 'products' and shift attention they omit a bit of hardware support, as well as codec related fps from the free version artificially, yes business, but not open source attitude.

I see no future in that model, we already have the Black Magic Camera shooting raw, the internet delivery codecs are minimal choices, online streaming is same choice, how many new proprietary codecs have appeared in recent years, how much of the LWKs demographic are shooting on XDCAM or whatever. The future is raw capture and a few becoming defacto delivery codec choices across all platforms and hardware.

They can keep it, whatever illustrious history it may have had. :-) Just my opinion.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 15:30

#7

nkumar

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Current version (0.9.2) is rock solid for me running on Linux Mint Maya 64 bit(Cinnamon Desktop). My computer hardware is around 30 months old and I have not faced any problem till now!

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 13:20

#8

pintxiki

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

As Nkumar, I am using Linux Mint 13 (MATE edition x64) and Current version (0.9.2). It works fine. My computer is really old (2006) but it was a very powerfull machine (Dell Precison Workstation) and remains strong enough today

I reccomend Linux Mint for you, MATE Edition may be better for an old PC.

Salud!

Sun, 10/14/2012 - 15:09

#9

Inprogress

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

I just tried to do a project, twice. I created proxy clips via Handbrake (trying to figure out the ffmpeg command is too laborious - anyway, point is I created proxies manually).

I started kdenlive, created a new project, loaded the proxy clips, and merely browsing through the clips made kdenlive crash - twice. Trying to install the debug software also proved a brickwall.

@yellow
Sounds like you are doing a fair amount of video editing from that post regarding LWKS. You editing mainly in Kdenlive I presume? But this is an off topic discussion.

As for trying sunabs ppa either stable or unstable....you lost me sorry. I followed the repository procedure showed on the website to update and install kdenlive via the software manager. As for stable or unstable, maybe I have unstable cause kdenlive constantly crashes with me.

I'll try Openshot (haven't crashed during me playing around with it) for this edit, besides it is a simple concept edit anyway.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 06:10

#10

farid

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

i am a fan of kdenlive nevertheless i know its limitations. i hope the refactoring will make it more stable to reduce the crashes and give us basic pro video editing tools.

i like that openshot is being constantly developed but it is for household editing, so is pitivi... the closest we get to pro in the foss world is cinelerra (if you manage to learn to deal with its peculiar ways and gui).

as fot distros i use archlinux for being lightweight if you think it is too difficult i would recommend avlinux. also use a lightweight window manager such as openbox or pekwm to spare your ram.

for me the best business model it that of blender, an industry standard tool with a great community behind it. if lightworks goes opensource i would definitely use it... although i would prefer lumiera to come to life or kdenlive become more reliable.

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 08:27

#11

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

hi Inprogress, why create proxies manually? kdenlive will do it for you.

I do edit very regularly and that's with kdenlive + blender for comp nodes for color processing. I use kdenlive proxy feature and 99% of source is Canon DSLR h264. Which I first remux in MP4Box.

Usually end up editing on an old 64bit Sempron with 2GB ram Ubuntu 12.04. Blender comp nodes, tracker and such on a much better machine.

If you want to try sunabs repositories best just search the site or google, I don't have the link to hand.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 21:06

#12

Inprogress

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Kdenlive keeps crashing on me, with manual proxy's or native (kdenlive proxy feature) proxy's. I can't even start a to edit.

But I have found my solution, I'm buying a new laptop just looking at some deals. Two reasons, I'm done struggling to get something to work when I could've spent the last two weeks editing, and I'd like to use Lightworks cause I paid for it. Who knows, maybe I'll be back with Kdenlive in a month.

Thanks all.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 21:19

#13

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

That's too bad about the crashes, see you around. Hope it works out for you.

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 14:31

#14

hlan

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

I use Ubuntu since version 10.04. Since then I would like to make Ubuntu my primary system which I have succeeded to get for all my use cases (email, web, office, ...) except Video Editing. I really would like to use Kdenlive but all it does is to crash and crash and crash ...

I run Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on different hardware: HP PC, Dell, and self-made Intel i7 based (i.e. different CPU & different graphic cards, RAM up to 4GB), and Kdenlive is installed from the Ubuntu software center.

The video clips that I would like to edit come from a Panasonic SD90 camcorder and are in MTS (AVCHD) format. The clips are short (less than a few minutes). Kdenlive correctly recognizes the clip properties. Kdenlive may work for a set of approx 10 clips but if I would like to edit/assemble a short holiday-worth of 500 clips it crashes when loading the clips and then Kdenlive is not able to recover from the crash (starts crashing again during recovery), so I can throw the project away. The clip at which Kdenlive crashes is random, i.e. it could the the 11th clip or the 111th clip. It happens at some point regardless whether the clips are loaded in small groups of 10 clips or by selecting the full range of clips in one go.

When opting to report the bug, Kdenlive concludes that the debug information is not useful.

Question: Assuming Kdenlive works for others, what all needs to be done (instructions?) to remove all libraries and tools that are used by Kdenlive, and what is the recommended way of re-installation sequence (given that the basic installation from Ubuntu Software Center does not result in a robust version of Kdenlive environment)?

Thank you very much in advance and sorry should the question be answered somewhere elsewhere (but basic searching did not lead me to fixing the problem).

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 18:32

#15

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

hi hlan, try using sunabs PPA, either the 'release' version:

https://launchpad.net/~sunab/+archive/kdenlive-release

or the 'unstable'

https://launchpad.net/~sunab/+archive/kdenlive-svn

There are times when problems with the unstable builds have left people unable to render for a few days for example, but on the whole not too bad.

Alternatively you can use the 'stable' PPA and use an 'unstable' latest build via the build script, the build script versions live in dated folders within your home directory so you can have both a 'stable' PPA build and cutting edge build at the same time, can be useful from time to time.

http://www.mltframework.org/twiki/bin/view/MLT/BuildScripts#Kdenlive

Regarding your Pano HD camcorder, you'll need to be building proxies, via kdenlives project template settings, to play that back in anywhere near realtime. I use kdenlive generated proxies always, takes away some of the load placed on the machine, I'm using 100's of Canon DSLR h264 clips at between 40 & 70Mbps generally.

What does still crash kdenlive though is trying to import a lot of large photos or photo sequences in one go.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 18:56

#16

hvdwolf

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

MTS remains a complex format.
My superzoom panasonic fotocamera delivers MTS as well. It's the only "video" camera I use as it does an excellent job and makes nice fotos as well (I don't want to carry two devices with me).
I use the following shell script, which uses ffmpeg and exiftool, on my MTS files.
exiftool is used to make sure that my mp4 files get the eaxct same file date as my MTS files.

====
#!/bin/sh

for i in *.MTS;
do
file_date=`exiftool -S -FileModifyDate "$i" | awk '{print $2" "$3}'`
ffmpeg -i "$i" -metadata date="$file_date" -metadata 'Create Date'="$file_date" -vcodec copy -acodec aac -ab 192k -strict experimental "./${i%MTS}mp4";
touch -r "$i" "./${i%MTS}mp4";
done;
====

I run it in the folder where my MTS files are. You can of course replace ffmpeg with avcodec nowadays on Ubuntu.

What it does is copy the h.264 stream (not transcode) to an mp4 container.
I have been working for hours and hours on two large projects using the stable 0.92 from the ppa on Ubuntu 12.0 64bit and I didn't have a single crash: not once.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:31

#17

hlan

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Re hvdwolf: wow, I do need to try this! Maybe it can provide the solution?

Re yellow: Thank you for the encouragement. I de-installed and re-installed with the following result
- Adding clips: still crashes at random. Trying around I realised that if I recover then it reliably crashes again whereas if I do not receover but load the same clips again then kdenlive is smart enough to recover nevertheless the work done in the previous session and proceed a little further. Applying this method over and over again I managed to get all clips included after about 2 hours :-) but done it was.
- Editing: worked like a charm (for the limited functions I used: rearrange, cut, set timeline guides and title clips
- Rendering: I tried different output formats and all sort permutations of configuration settings (interlaced or not, different quality settings, etc) and it stalls and it stalls and it stalls - usually ater about 5-10 minutes. The PC never run out of resources (disk space or memory). Inspecting the mpeg2 files at times you could see jitter happening just before kdenlive stalls. It looks like if after some time kdenlive develops a (syn) problem of some sort that gets worse until it stalls. The kdenlive mts process goes on hrtimer-nanosleep and never again wakes up.

Yellow: How did you render your project?

Hvdwolf: Really appreciate your help. I will try it as soon as I get time and report back ...

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 12:05

#18

yellow

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

hlan, too bad you're still having constant crashes. When you say adding clips crashes kdenlive do you mean adding them to the timeline or project tree?

Is that with kdenlives project assigned proxy generation active or not.

As mentioned, I always use proxies by first ensuring I have a usable proxy commandline working in kdenlives config, then start a new project, choose the proxy profile in project settings, load in all clips by drag drop into the project tree, I then wait a bit for thumbnail and proxy creation, then save the project with a name and begin editing, I don't generally start dragging onto the timeline until the proxys are built.

re remuxing, you can remux to mp4 from within kdenlive, but this does not include the excif stuff posted above, the excif stuff is cool but personally as I'm working with a copy of source files in a project directory and keep well away from the RAID backup archive originals I don't see a lot of point with maintaining dates, just personal choice, wanted to say that a simple remux of MTS to mp4 doesn't require CLI stuff necessarily, its in kdenlive already.

Rendering I have no problems with any format and also custom output, if you can provide a small clip might help.

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 11:54

#19

hlan

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Hello Yellow,

Yes, the workflow was first load the clips, wait for thumbnails creation and proxy creation to be completed. The crashes happen there - not sure why?

Then the clips were put on the timeline, changes made, titles added, and last rendering which was a big fail. I send you a short clip that also lets you to easily verify the quality of the result.

Thank you ...

update:
- Installed a new Ubuntu system and Kdenlive. Now Kdenlive does not crash any more when adding video clips (and creating proxies). The Kdenlive installation took 4-5 times longer (compared with doing it in my other Ubuntu system), installing lots of libraries that were still missing in the new system.
- On the old Ubuntu system I believe that Kdenlive depended on so much libraries outside its direct control and that were not explicitly checked and henec some libraries were not good any more. Maybe something that Kdenlive developers could consider is to package and keep inside the Kdenlive environment more libraries that it needs. The few mega bytes of being less space efficient would be greatly awarded by more robust, self-contained Kdenlive environment.

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 13:04

#20

ttguy

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

"Maybe something that Kdenlive developers could consider is to package and keep inside the Kdenlive environment more libraries that it needs. "

This does not really fit with the Linux philosophy. So I doubt this is going to happen.

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 17:38

#21

gwarham

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

I have had a lot of crashing problems with 64-bit Kdenlive, but I have found the 32 bit version to be almost completely stable, editing clips from Sony HVR-Z1 (HDV) and Panasonic SD90 (AVCHD).

I'm running Ubuntu 12.04, 64 bit and 32 bit versions.

The difference was so noticable, that I decided to try 32 bit Ubuntu on my aging 64 bit Core-2 laptop. Kdenlive is considerably more stable as a result.

I am wondering now if I can install 32-bit Kdenlive on a 64 bit system?

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 13:00

#22

hlan

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Re: Which version is rock solid?

Hello gwarham, that's interesting.

- My Kdenlive on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS 32b never managed to render to the very end of the project. Having (tried) to "clean" and reinstall Kdenlive gave some improvement, i.e. how many clips Kdenlive could add (and proxy) at a time and for how long it would render - but at the end it never rendered the full project. At the moment I believe that problems came from prerequisite libraries that do not ship with Kdenlive and that are not verified at installation time for being at the good version, ultimately causing stability issues. Prior to Kdenlive I tried all the different video editing software and believe this left a mess behind on the PC.

- A new installation made was with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS 64b, that had no problem when adding and proxy'ing clips, and rendered to the very end! I am still in the exploration phase, but rather attribute this to the clean install and not to 32 or 64b.

PS the 64b install seems to process video much faster(though not sure if it comes only from the architecture or if the slower performance on the other system was caused by one of the bad libraries) - how do your systems compare for processing time?