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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000336KdenliveEffectspublic2008-11-10 11:132010-03-23 12:35
ReporterAthiril 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityfeatureReproducibilityN/A
StatusfeedbackResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product VersionRecent git 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000336: Keyframe for Every Video and Audio Effect variable in the effects stack
DescriptionExpose the variables for every audio and video effect, allow them to be keyframed.

Similar to what you have with Brightness (good job btw, pleased to see some keyframing effects already!), all video effects should also have opacity, which should also be able to be keyframed.
TagsNo tags attached.
Build/Install Method
Attached Files

- Relationships
related to 0000289acknowledged Feature request : MLT and kdenlive support for keyframes, as independant objects 
has duplicate 0000768closed [wish] change video (and audio) effect's parameters over time 
related to 0000397acknowledged Difficult to select keyframes for volume-effect 
related to 0000473closedddennedy Feature Request - Add Pan & Zoom "kenburns" effect to MLT 

-  Notes
(0001044)
madsdyd (administrator)
2008-11-10 16:32

This is a potential duplicate (maybe?) of 289. Please discuss.
(0001064)
cinephiliac (updater)
2008-11-10 20:53

I would say that this is basically the same request. I've asked JMP to confirm this on 0000289. If we did go this route we would need to only show the "keyframe line indicator" (on the timeline) for the selected effect. If we didn't then having multiple effects would cover the timeline clip in a spaghetti pattern of lines with keyframes everywhere. One at a time would work fine though.
(0001072)
Athiril (reporter)
2008-11-10 21:54

there should be a place to display and manipulate keyframes other than the timeline.
(0001097)
cinephiliac (updater)
2008-11-11 07:45

Agreed. Fortunately that's already filed as issue 0000258. :)
(0001142)
madsdyd (administrator)
2008-11-12 10:59

There still is a subtle difference between this and 0000289, as I understand it. In 0000289, keyframes are objects on the timeline or inside a clip, that each can have several effects attached. In this request I think it is a matter of updating all the mlt and frei0r effects to support keyframes?
(0001239)
ddennedy (developer)
2008-11-18 05:31
edited on: 2008-11-18 05:32

As for the difference from 0000289, I think it is the same objective with two different approaches. I am still not sure how the approach described in 289 would look and operate as I have not seen anything like it.

In the video to which jmpoure directed me, a keyframe does not behave as an object to which effects are "attached"

http://vimeo.com/1111872 [^]

The problem here is informal, ad hoc communication. It needs some real mockups with flows described in some detail. Or, perhaps a tutorial that clearly demonstrates it. According to that FCP keyframes tutorial on Vimeo, I see multiple timelines for an effect (Basic Motion), where each timeline represents a group of parameters. Then, the keyframes are points in the timeline.

(0002563)
LeHomard (developer)
2009-03-19 16:21

The way I see it (Correct me Athiril if that's not what you expect), the best way to have all (or at least most) effects keyframable would be to use the same interface as the "affine composite" transition.

Lost of sliders for the various parameters and at the bottom a mini timeline (the length of the clip for effects, the length of the transition for transitions) with "add keyframe", "next keyframe", "opacity" (if opacity is possible to define for effects).

Having multiple timelines and editing them directly on the clip, like volume or brightness at the moment, would probably end up being a mess.

How difficult would it be to transpose the code from the "composite" transition into the effects such as "crop" or "brightness" ? (real question, I have no idea...)
(0002564)
ddennedy (developer)
2009-03-19 17:34

I understand the concern about making the timeline too cluttered. However, another horizontal rule widget with no conveyance of time is also a big problem. This is a problem I faced when using MainActor and when building some of Kino's effects. Some editors have a separate timeline where tracks correspond to effect parameters. Other tools have an expandable timeline. There are several issues being discussed here that need to be considered for a general redesign or major improvement:

1) more keyframable parameters (all is not possible by intentional MLT design)

2) consistent or common UI for keyframing - here is where I add that it should have some notion of time

3) exposing numeric widgets for some parameters that have only crude visual ones

4) allowing filters to have in and out points (currently requires cutting the clip)

5) all video effects have an opacity control (and/or can use the video's alpha channel)

6) all audio effects have a wetness control

To answer your question, the composite transition's keyframe control is available to every effect with a parameter whose MLT type is mlt_geometry. mlt_geometry is typically used to support a combo property of the form X,Y:WxH:opacity, and it is the only type to natively support keyframing and interpolation. It is already fairly high on the MLT ToDo list to generalize this.
(0002565)
LeHomard (developer)
2009-03-19 18:00

- UI consistency

Using the same UI as the composite transition would be pretty consistent... I don't think the notion of time ("global" or "project" time, that is) is important. When applying an effect, you want the clip to look a certain way at a certain point in time, and only a "relative" time indicator is necessary for that purpose.

Here is a video of effect keyframing in Vegas Pro : http://www.vimeo.com/2189800 [^]
It looks very much like the composite keyframe control, and it works really well. Editable timelines are also used for volume control directly on the track, similar to Kdenlive.

Premiere offers the same feature, but slightly different : http://www.mediacollege.com/adobe/premiere/pro/keyframes/effect-controls.html [^]
Each parameter of an effect has separate keyframes. More control but a more cluttered interface... Premiere also features keyframes in the timeline, but for a limited number of effects (those with a single parameter...).

- allowing filters to have in and out points
I'm not sure this is really important. Isn't just easier to set the parameters to zero before and after a certain point rather than adding another feature ?
(0002566)
ddennedy (developer)
2009-03-19 18:31

Are you trying to tell me that my personal experience regarding the need for time here is invalid? How rude! Both of your examples show time in the header of the keyframe widget. I prefer the Premiere and Final Cut Pro UIs in the above examples.

Re "allowing filters to have in and out points"

MLT allows effects to decide if parameters are mutable, and mutable parameters are required to do keyframing. Never will ALL parameters will be keyframable with interpolation because it is a plugable system, and the plugin must be purposely written to be less stateful and understand parameter value changes. OTOH, the MLT framework supports the notion of filters to have an in and out point that is independent of the filter implementation. It is possible, given your example, that a keyframing UI could understand a non-mutable parameter, impose a constraint of up to 1 discrete (non-interpolated), user-modifiable keyframe, and convert that into MLT filter in/out. That would make the UI consistent in one regard but perhaps adding some confusion.
(0002567)
LeHomard (developer)
2009-03-19 23:52

The funny thing is that I had actually never realized that the time was shown in the header of the keyframe widget in Vegas and Premiere... I suppose it just shows that during my persnnal experience with those programs I never had the need to know the exact time for keyframing effects, and it also shows that it's not a distracting widget and is well integrated with the interface.

I understand how it could be an interesting and helpful idea, especially if integrated the same way in Kdenlive, but it isn't anything I'd miss.

But that's only my personal experience, I wouldn't want to be rude ;)

Concerning in and out points I hadn't thought of non "keyframable with interpolation" effects and parameters. In that case I agree that in and out points could come in handy, but again, I wouldn't miss the feature if it wasn't there and would simply cut the clip into different parts before applying these effects...
(0002791)
jasononeil (reporter)
2009-05-01 22:33

Hi people,

It's my first time posting here - just tried out Kdenlive for the first time in over a year and am quite amazed with it :) Still, this one feature, when implemented, will probably allow me to start using this instead of Premiere for many of my projects, save booting into Windows ;)

LeHomard - those links you posted are helpful. On the media college site I also found a different page which shows how they can edit keyframes from the timeline, which is what I personally am most familiar with - and is a feature on both Final Cut and Premiere, I believe.

The page is here:
http://www.mediacollege.com/adobe/premiere/pro/keyframes/timeline.html [^]

ddennedy - If you're one of the developers - well done! You guys are doing an amazing job. You mentioned that really clear mockups and well documented workflows would be helpful here. I'm not a programmer, but I have a strong interest in interface design, (web design background) and I'm keen to help out.

If you're open to me sending through some ideas (hopefully clear and well documented!), send me an email and I'll see what I can do.

Jason O'Neil
jas.on.oneil@gmail.com
(0004487)
kavol (reporter)
2010-01-04 15:27

Hi.

I'm missing a possibility to change the parameters of Pan and Zoom effect over the duration of a clip, so I wanted to report a wish similar to issue 768, which led me here ...

I'm not sure if I get the discussion right, and the links on Vimeo do not work for me, so I'll just explain what I would like to have:

It should work similar to "Brightness (keyframable)" effect that is present in Kdenlive 0.7.6 - there should be ability to define several time points (frames) at the clip where the parameters of the effect would be set. Then there should be one more setting, whether the parameters should be kept the same until next defined values, or whether they should change over time towards the next values. (The current "Brightness" implementation does just the latter.)

Would it be possible? - Would it be possible any time soon, please? :-)
(0004859)
thatonefilmguy (reporter)
2010-03-23 12:35

"Then there should be one more setting, whether the parameters should be kept the same until next defined values, or whether they should change over time towards the next values."

kavol, you can do this with the current Brightness effect by adding a keyframe one frame before the new brightness level.

So for a 5 second clip, you have a keyframe at the start with your starting brightness, at the end for your ending brightness, then two keyframes in the middle - one with the same level as the starting brightness and one with the same as the ending brightness. This way there is only a 1 frame 'transition' between the levels, rather than a change over time. This is true of other compositors as well.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2008-11-10 11:13 Athiril New Issue
2008-11-10 16:32 madsdyd Relationship added related to 0000289
2008-11-10 16:32 madsdyd Note Added: 0001044
2008-11-10 16:32 madsdyd Status new => feedback
2008-11-10 20:53 cinephiliac Note Added: 0001064
2008-11-10 21:54 Athiril Note Added: 0001072
2008-11-11 07:45 cinephiliac Note Added: 0001097
2008-11-12 10:59 madsdyd Note Added: 0001142
2008-11-18 05:31 ddennedy Note Added: 0001239
2008-11-18 05:32 ddennedy Note Edited: 0001239
2008-11-23 19:05 cinephiliac Relationship added related to 0000397
2008-12-15 13:19 cinephiliac Relationship added related to 0000473
2009-03-19 16:21 LeHomard Note Added: 0002563
2009-03-19 17:34 ddennedy Note Added: 0002564
2009-03-19 18:00 LeHomard Note Added: 0002565
2009-03-19 18:31 ddennedy Note Added: 0002566
2009-03-19 23:52 LeHomard Note Added: 0002567
2009-04-13 06:42 ddennedy Relationship added has duplicate 0000768
2009-05-01 22:33 jasononeil Note Added: 0002791
2010-01-04 15:27 kavol Note Added: 0004487
2010-03-23 12:35 thatonefilmguy Note Added: 0004859


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