3 point editing

Sorry for 1) the double post (first was in the wrong forum) 2) my bad Englih.

As a professional editor I think 3 point editing is a key feature.

A NLE where you can't do 3 point editing can't pretend to be use by professionals.

You can imagine other logic but : 1) why reinvent the wheel 2) the editors love 3 point editing 3) (for the moment) Other logic are slower and less permissive.

So, what is 3 point editing ? I'll try to explain but it's not easy for me in English.

This is the content of my source and my timeline (for the examples, I will use only one layer), each letter in a frame :

SOURCE | V1 | 1234567890
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Case 1 :
Now, i put a mark IN and a mark OUT in my source (to say, i want this part of the rush) an Mark IN in the timeline (3 marks -> 3 point)

SOURCE | V1 | 123 i 456 o 7890

TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF i GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Now I have 2 solution (corresponding in 2 buttons in the interface or 2 shortcuts in my keyboard).

a) I press REPLACE : my selection of source go after mark IN and replace the same length.

TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF-456-JKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

a) I press INSERT : my selection of source go after mark IN and everything after it move.

TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF-456-GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Case 2 :

SOURCE | V1 | 123 i 456 o 7890
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF o GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

REPLACE :
TIMELINE | V1 | ABC-456-GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

INSERT :
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF-456-GHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Case 3 :

SOURCE | V1 | 123 i 4567890
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF i GHIJK o LMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

REPLACE :
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF-45678-LMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

INSERT : NO

Case 4 :
SOURCE | V1 | 123456789 o 0
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF i GHIJK o LMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

REPLACE :
TIMELINE | V1 | ABCDEF-56789-LMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

INSERT : NO

I hope you will see all the advantages of this logic: rapidity (just one click or key is quicker than drag'n drop), precision (I know exactly what's happens and why) liberty for the editor (for the moment, in kdenlive I can't put a clip between two).

I know it'smust look quite complicate comparing to just drag'n drop. But you have both.

To me it's like "styles" in a text editor : you can just use bold, italic and font size an think it's ok. But when you have a lot of work to do you need something more productive.

Thanks for your input. I am currently trying to implement something like that. Here is what I plan to do:

* implement "editing" modes: normal, overwrite, insert:
Normal mode works like before
Overwrite mode means you can move a clip over another one, and it will replace it
Insert mode means you can move a clip anywhere, and when dropped, it will cut the timeline at insert point and insert your clip

* improve keyboard navigation:
I have already implemented a way to select a track with keyboard (using up / down arrows to select another track).
I have reworked the "timeline zone" shortcuts, so that now "i" and "o" set the in and out points of the timeline zone.

When those 2 points are fully implemented, I think it will just be a question of adding appropriate shortcuts:

* insert selection at timeline zone in point
* insert selection at timeline zone out point
* insert selection in timeline zone

If you are in "Overwrite mode, that newly inserted clip will replace existing ones in timeline. If you are in "Insert mode", the clips will be inserted and the other one on the track will be pushed.

Does that look ok to you?

I try to get it exactly, tell me if I'm wrong...

- Normal editing

Like now : the editor has to find a free place in the timeline, at the end of the editing or in another track.
This could be cumulate with a real overwrite mode : the editor has to find a free place in the timeline OR can replace some frame with the new clip.

- Overwrite :

Do you mean we replace the entire clip ? This could be funny for beginners but not exactly what's editors need.

I try to give a precise example. I have an editing with 2 clips A and B :

Timeline V1 : AAAAAA i AAAABB o BBBBBBBB

In my player I have a clip C.

Player V1 : CCCiCCCCCCC

When I do Overwrite I don't expect to have V1 : CCCCCCBBBBBBB but V1 : AAAAAACCCCCCBBBBBBBB.

I have overwrited my timeline zone with the new clip. Is this what you mean ?

- Insert : Look good.

Track selection with arrows : It can work, it unusual but can be try. Normaly you are more productive when you can chose separately in witch video and audio you put your new clip.

Timeline zone : great ! Thanks you ! Now we just need the good insert/overwrite function.

Insert selection at timeline zone in point, insert selection at timeline zone out point, insert selection in timeline zone : we just need the first (second can be try, third is actualy an overwrite, isn't it ?)

If you speak french we can talk by mail or by phone, it will be much easy for my. (French are terrible to learn, foreign language).

I think it is important to keep in mind that drag-n-drop should not be the only way to add something to the timeline as it is now if I know correctly. Also, in addition to keyboard shortcuts, I think there should be button clicks to initiate the insert/overwrite action. I think this implies there is not a "sticky" mode, but more of an insert or overwrite command.

Also, something to keep in mind for keyboard shortcuts and selection. How do I target a set-In or set-Out keyboard shortcut to the Clip Monitor or timeline? See this related bug:
http://www.kdenlive.org/mantis/view.php?id=441

It suggests to use Shift+I and Shift+O to set an edit point in Clip Monitor. That might be OK, but what about transport control? How does one toggle the focus of the transport control keyboard shortcuts between Clip and Project monitors without clicking? If the Project Monitor has focus for transport control, then I might expect 'i' and 'o' to affect the timeline zone instead - just a thought.

I'm sorry but to give you my advice I have to compare with the commercial NLE I know.

Shift-I and Shift-O could be good but Editor have the habits of one key shortcut.

2 monitors(clip and project) should be the default setup. When I press I or O I'm expecting to put a mark in the last monitor I click. Most Editor's do transport first with the mouse and keybord just before putting mark (to be more accurate). So you always focusing the transport you just touch. That's the way i't work on Avid, FCP, Premiere, Vegas... (And Cinelerra by the way).

Maybe we could have one key to swith from clip to project (tab ?) so a good editor could work with keyboard only :

I'm in clip monitor : j-k-l plus left and right arrow. I. j-k-l plus left and right arrow. O. TAB
I'm in project monitor (and timeline) : j-k-l plus left and right arrow. I. V (overwrite) or B (insert).
Et voila ! Here's my new clip.

One very nice feature for 3-point editing would be an automatic fourth point : actualy when you mark 3 point, you can guess the 4th one. I'm used to this but if Kdenlive could show it to me.... (By the way it would be a brand new feature missing in any commercial NLE).

(Sorry I don't have English dictionnary on this computer...)

Hi...

I did some progress on that: overwrite mode is now working, you can set in / out point in clip monitor, switch to timeline using the 't' key, set in point in timeline (select track with up / down arrows) and press V to insert-overwrite the clip zone.

I will work on the insert-push mode next... If someone can try the latest svn, feedback is welcome.

Great ! Thanks You !

I will test the svn version when I'll be at home (next week).

Some preliminary feedbacks from someone who didn't see yet:

1) Like it was said before, there should be also a overwrite button.
2) While you are in this part of the code, you could implement a lift function (witch is nothing more than a overwrite with void).
3) The old i-o in timeline function could be kept and attributed to others shortcuts (personalty, I won't use it but some people may like it).
4) Is this full 3-point ? Can we, for instance, set I-O in the timeline and set O in clip ?

Nice move anyway ! I can't wait for a 3-point enable kdenlive !

I used it, and it seems to be working. I ran into a conflict on the keyboard shortcut for 'O' between set-out-point and setting to Overwite mode. I reassigned overwrite mode to 'B' and now the related shortcuts V, B, and N (normal) are situated right next to each other, which is convenient and easy to remember. The biggest problem I ran into was when working with an empty timeline, I and O do not behave as I would expect. Same goes for when I try to use I/O on timeline beyond the end of the movie.